Wednesday, December 21, 2005

guys .. Allow me to do d kick off ..

i think most people won't deny d fact that "abortion", is in its most fundamental form, d taking of another person's life (some of us will beg to differ) .. yet nobody can say for sure, if d legalising of this "murder" is ultimately right or wrong... This, i think, is d reason why "abortion" is starting to fascinate me a little ..

my opinion on abortion is contrary to my faith ( im a buddhist), and we buddhist will somewhat believe that taking d life of another will surely result in "bad karma", or consequences which we'll hv to face later on in life. but then again, i cant help but think ... is abortion a form of murder at all?? and can d foetus b considered a living thing, jus like d rest of us ??

after some thinking, i hv concluded that d foetus is a 'kind' of living thing, but not completely one ... so d only way to decide if d foetus is human ( and if abortion is murder), is to decide, at what stage does the d foetus finally become a human .. for me, d foetus shd b counted as a human at d point where it can start to feel pain. b4 d foetus can feel any pain, it is jus another cell, or DNA, or anything u wish to call it, jus like our hair .. erm, according to research, its only after abt 28 wks ... so to sum it up, anythg b4 this period of time, a foetus, cannot b called human, and as such, abortion during which is not a form of murder .. and hence, abortion b4 28wks, shd b considered n made legal.. what do u guys think ??



Blogger JivinJ said...

Hi Henry,
Isn't it a bit off to say that abortion is murder yet say that nobody is sure whether this murder is right or wrong? Could you make the same claim for another kind of murder?

Are you aware of a rare disease called congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis? It's a disease where someone can't ever feel pain. There was a story on a little girl with this disease around a year ago. By your criteria - this little girl would be a "kind" of a living thing you wasn't really human because she can't feel pain. Is she just another cell or DNA simply because she can't feel pain?

Should it be legal to kill her because she can't feel pain?

7:19 AM  
Blogger henry said...

helloz jinvinj,

i wd like to start off by directing this questn to you .. "are you thoroughly convinced that abortion is 100% wrong ?" Becoz if there is any doubt that it might b right after all, den i dun c the problem w. my suggesting that this "form of murder could b right or wrong"... there is a reason y some countries r nt adopting anti-abortion laws ..

the comparison that you made, regarding a little girl w. "congenital insensitivity to pain w. anhidrosis", otherwise known as CIPA, is really interesting (and i hv to admit that tis is d first time i've come to know about it) ... but this cell/DNA that im referring to, is d foetus, that unborned, that has no friends, it is nt socially attached to d world ... and up till now, there is still a debate on whether foetus hv emotions(unlike the girl w. CIPA), and even if they do, when does it starts..

somewhere bet. d stage of fertilisation n d birth of a baby, is a human baby.. it is in-between, but who's to say exactly when?? d girl that you're referring to, she is already borned, and we dun need an Einstein to tell us that she's considered a human ... so we're really comparing two different things here,jinvinj ..

but jus to answer your questn, is it justifiable to kill d girl jus bcoz she can't feel pain ??... d answer is definitely NO

9:16 PM  
Blogger JivinJ said...

Hi Henry,
I'm throughly convinced that abortion is 100% wrong. But my convictions aren't always 100% correct.

Your post argued that the unborn weren't deserving of basic rights because they can't feel pain up to a certain point. It now appears that you are arguing that the unborn aren't deserving of basic rights because they don't have friends and aren't socially attached to the world. Aren't there thousands of people who don't have friends and aren't socially attached to the world? Would it be ok for me to kill a homeless man because he didn't have any friends?

It appears that the real question before us is not "do the unborn have friends" but rather "are the unborn human beings?" Would you agree? For me if the unborn aren't human beings then I have no problem with abortion. Abortion then would merely be removing a part of the woman's body and have the same moral significance as a wisdom teeth removal.

If it's not justifiable to kill a young girl because she can't feel pain, then it seems it also wouldn't be justifiable to kill the unborn because they can't feel pain, correct?

5:26 AM  
Blogger xIa0roY said...

I think most people will think abortion is like killing a new life. Some may think that why are human beings killing them when they decided to have them in this world.?

Murder can be considered relatively true when abortion has taken place. Incidents came about when teenages just think of having sex without considering the consequences. This creates a great problem when safety precautions are not made and also they are not mentally prepared to take care of the unborn baby.

As for me, I will support the fact that abortion can b considered as a form of "murder". If you don't want 2 feel guilty for killing a new live, please consider before doing anytink.

Therefore, I sum up by making a conclusion that Abortion should not be legalise. This is because teenage might take it for granted that if any incidents of babies is found, they can just simply abandoned it by making an abortion. Overall, this is the reason that i provide to support my stand.

6:22 AM  
Blogger xIa0roY said...

Abortion is a civil wrong and a moral obligation, depending on the situation. In cases where rape or incest or when the child brings danger to the conceiving mother, the child should be aborted, no questions asked.

However, other than that, in my opinion, abortion should never be legalized. Afterall, a child is still a human being, and no human being should be robbed of his right to enter the world. Take a look at those criminals committing the most horrendous crimes known to man, and yet many of them are not given the death penalty, whats more a young innocent child.

I do believe that every human being deserve his own equal rights of deciding if he should live or die, and that includes even an unborn child. Therefore, I still think that we should not legalise abortion.

8:28 AM  
Blogger henry said...

erm, wow .. jivinj !

u really hv some strong views on this topic, don't you ?? aha ..
i see that you hv quoted me in your own blog n used some of my comments to tilt things slightly to your own advantage .. which realli fine ..

but jus to break down the understandg for d other people reading this, let me try to quote n analyze sum of d things u've said (i hope u dun mind)... ermm ..

1) u said: " Aren't there thousands of people who don't have friends and aren't socially attached to the world? Would it be ok for me to kill a homeless man because he didn't have any friends? "

i say: again, u're making a comparison bet. a unborned foetus, and a grown-ass man, a being that is already borned.. d bottom-line is, whether d man is suffering fr CIPA(unable to feel pain like u said), whether d man is homeless or not, whether he has friends or not, is already not important! because he is wat u said he is ... a MAN. that means, already borned, no longer in e womb! if u insist on keeping your argument on this line, then there is really nothing for us to further debate on... becoz all of your comments, so far, is trying to say that we cannot kill a homeless man, or a girl who cannot feel pain and hence, we shd not allow d abortion of foetus. Which is really a wrong comparison ..

2)u say: "It appears that the real question before us is not "do the unborn have friends" but rather "are the unborn human beings?" Would you agree? "

i say: i totally agree! haha, in fact, that is my point! if you refer back to my original post. it goes like this: "so d only way to decide if d foetus is human ( and if abortion is murder), is to decide, at what stage does the d foetus finally become a human .."

my friend, u really hit d nail this time.. wat is impt for us, is to decide if d foetus is a human ... and if it is, at which point shd it b considered a human. From my point of view, one of d ways to decide if it is human is d point at which it starts to feel pain ... so, how wd you decide on this?

8:29 AM  
Blogger henry said...

alamak, there's jus so many articles on d internet relating to abortion .. and supporters fr. both sides of this abortion issue have their valid reasons ...

i chanced upon tis reading .. something abt d basic right of woman .. its a pro-abortionist stance tho.. but i hv to agree w. it full-heartedly ..

it points out that in this modern day era, women have already managed to evolve fr. their roles in prehistoric times .. i mean jus think abt it, d fact now is that we have witnessed countless of women who have proved, time n time again .. that they also capable( like their male counterparts) of making their own decision, of sticking by these decisions and finally showing everybody that d decisions made r right...

i feel that today, woman has d ability to decide n do what is best n right for themselves, and we as a society, shd trust them ... n this will mean giving them d right to "choose" d option of abortion. i know that some will always argue that not all women, or girls, are matured enough to make a sensible decision .. and i agree, because some of them r really too young. but in most countries, before abortions r carried out, mother's are actually required to undergo professional counselling, after which, there is a compulsory "consideration period". mother's r therefore prevented, to a certain extent, fr making rash n impulsive decisions .. thank god in Spore, we hv such rules ..

9:17 AM  
Blogger JivinJ said...

Hi Henry,
I had no intention of tilting things to my advantage and I apologize if it came off like that.

I'm glad we agree that central issue is whether the unborn is a human being or not as opposed to whether they feel pain, have friends, etc. The object of my previous comments was to show that eliminating the unborn from the realm of being human and having rights based on certain criteria like being able to feel pain or having friends will often eliminate individuals who everyone recognizes as human beings.

I would use science to decide if the unborn are human beings. First, I'd look to the Law of Biogenesis - which states that all life comes from life and life reproduces after its own kind. For example, cats reproduce and create cats, dogs reproduce and create dogs, etc. If two humans have sex and create an entity (a fetus) then by definition this organism has to be a human being. It can't be cat or dog or anything else. If it is alive and an organism, it has to be a human being.

Second, I'd look to experts in embryology (people who study human embryos on a daily basis). Numerous textbooks in embryology clearly state that at conception, the life a human being begins.

The born and unborn differ in four ways. Size, level of development, environment and degree of dependency. None of these differences is the kind of difference we'd use to allow certain portions of our population to kill other portions.

Another problem with your pain criteria is that many children are born before 28 weeks. This means that a premature infant who may not be able to feel pain wouldn't be a human being - which doesn't seem to work for me.

2:02 PM  
Blogger henry said...


now u're talkg ! u made a really valid point abt this law of biognesis .. i hv no problems w. that, unless im wanting to overthrow this law ..

gd job !

3:05 AM  

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